Curse

Avarre · Mar 20, 2006, 09:02 AM // 09:02

It's not a 'The Seers are bad, the Mursaat are good'

It's more likely that the Seers and Mursaat, being very similar races, were caught in a large war and the Door of Komalie was simply held by the Mursaat. It is possible the Seers did not know or care about the Titans behind the gate, as they were only in direct war on the Mursaat.

What seems odd is that the Seer certainly knew about the titans, yet never attempted to inform you about them and only directed you against them after the Mursaat had been swept. In my opinion, it was the Seer who really understood what was going on, and wanted you to open the gate, destroy the Mursaat, and then fix the problem for the glory of the Seer race. The Seer can be seen as one of the antagonists in this aspect, as it's them that drives you for their own gain. Once the Mursaat were gone in entirety, then the Seer gets you to close the door and destroy the Titans before they can cause additional harm (bonus quest). By the way, can someone name the seer race? Only that particular one is a Seer, the rest are something else. If nobody wants to, I can try to go think one up

Quote:

Lich
^
Titans
^
Charr Lords
^
Normal Charr Bosses
^
Normal Charr

This is not exactly correct. The chain of command goes like so.

Charr -> Bosses -> Lords -> Flame Lords

Of which all worship the Titans, which are controlled by the Lich. The Charr, however, would not obey the Lich directly, they are more of an uncontrolled factor that increase the might of the Titan armies by following them directly.

The Titans themselves are what appear to be constructs of the gods, and sealed behind a bloodstone, appear to be incarnated Destruction. The reason the Sceptre of Orr commands them is because Orr used to be the Kingdom where the gods dwelled, likely the Sceptre was created and left behind by them and thus can control their devastating weapons left behind (the titans). The Titans remind me of the Weapons of FF7, constructed by the planet in defence, only the other way around (contructed by the gods for the purpose of oblivion, for whatever purpose).

Martian · Mar 20, 2006, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakerius

Yes, Orr is supposedly in the area of broken islands between the desert and the Ring of Fire chain.

Then how come the undead are in Kryta? and there are no Skellies in the desert, which would pose no problem to creatures who dont need water or food. plus the Quest "Orrian Excavation" where you have to find orrian artefacts takes you to the North Coast of Kryta.

Im pretty sure The Seer is a Mursaat just in different armour with it's wingy bits tucked in, part of some dissident group who are fighting the majority of the Mursaat.

Eldin · Mar 20, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

The seers may be another faction of mursaat, or had been mursaat themselves somewhere down the line.

Still, what can we ponder about the titans...the charr met them at one time, meaning they had been free in the past. What was their purpose for creation? Were they like Halo's firing system, created for some last resort purpose, or are they just demons from hell?

The true splitting of the bloodstone was in order to prevent any race from controlling all the magic and such, I am not sure if by intention the bloodstones were also to use the souls of those killed on them to power the soul batteries and keep the Door of Komalie closed (of which may not have even been constructed at that time).

Avarre · Mar 21, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

Then how come the undead are in Kryta? and there are no Skellies in the desert, which would pose no problem to creatures who dont need water or food. plus the Quest "Orrian Excavation" where you have to find orrian artefacts takes you to the North Coast of Kryta.

Im pretty sure The Seer is a Mursaat just in different armour with it's wingy bits tucked in, part of some dissident group who are fighting the majority of the Mursaat.

The Seer is not a Mursaat. I quote from the Seer '..you are going to do what my entire race could not... you are going to destroy the Mursaat.'

The Seer speaks of their own race seperately from the Mursaat. Hence, they are not the same (similar though, I'll grant).

The Undead are in Kryta because the Lich is trying to secure the Sceptre of Orr, and taking no chances with losing it. He constantly hunted it with undead, and used the Shining blade as well (2x the chance of success!). Also note the guilds were at war with each other... maybe the Lich wants vengeance on Kryta for what it did to Orr earlier.

Martian · Mar 21, 2006, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Ahh of course "my entire race" i should have remmbered that, still i wish there were some skeletons to fight in the desert and it would make sense if Orr is that close.
what puzzles me is how the Charr could get through the shiverpeaks or the desert to the broken islands, especially without totally destroying Ascalon first

Eldin · Mar 21, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Back then, the broken islands were a solid landmass, connected to the peninsula, of which was also not scorched back then. It was the cataclysm that shattered Orr into a cluster of islands. The shiverpeaks, though, I'm not sure. The grawl made it through to Witman, so it's possible for the Charr to.

Perhaps the charr used portals? Kind of like the titan portals?

Order of events:

1) Charr start the searing.
2) Shortly later, they head out to Kryta and Orr.

-Events below take place in lord knows what order, I'm not sure if they made
it to Orr first or Kryta-

3) Vizier Khilbron intentionally sets off the Cataclysm, destroying Orr, the Orrians, as well as the invading Charr.
4) Saul D'Alessio spreads the word of the Mursaat, the White Mantle is formed.
5) The Mantle drive off the Charr army.

Sentao Nugra · Mar 21, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

3&5 are at roughly the same time, where 4 is ~50 years before (im pretty sure.) what interests me is why isnt there anything in dwarven tales about the charr crossing the shiverpeaks??

Eldin · Mar 22, 2006, 12:34 AM // 00:34

We know little of dwarven culture to begin with...though the dwarves and humans once had "Old Alliances". Whether these were used during the Guild Wars (if so, which kingdom did the Deldrimor Dwarves tema up with?) or some other affairs, I'm not sure. It seems as if the Charr didn't really even harm the dwarves, they mainly seemed to just pass through quickly. I, too, wonder however how the Charr got through the desert without being eaten by a Sand Wurm.

Still, the Charr are one of the more cultured and civilized non-human races, plus they had an entire legion of Charr at their disposal at this time, in comparison to the puny, spread out groups of level 8s fought in the post-searing missions. Plus, again, if we could scarcely overcome the forgotten in a group of six or eight for one mission, a legion could definitely probably clear a significant amount of land. Also, the Charr did not have any ascension matters on their minds to drive them apart, unlike the Elonians.

Avarre · Mar 22, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

The manual mentions the Charr swept south after completely devastating Ascalon after the Searing. Most likely they flanked Ascalon and would have come back to obliterate them, if they were not demolished at Orr.

The Charr, as far as I can discern, all came down from the north. They probably went north of the Shiverpeaks to reach Kryta, as it mentions the Mantle drove them back into the north.

Pi_Numurian · Mar 22, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldin

The seers may be another faction of mursaat, or had been mursaat themselves somewhere down the line.

Still, what can we ponder about the titans...the charr met them at one time, meaning they had been free in the past. What was their purpose for creation? Were they like Halo's firing system, created for some last resort purpose, or are they just demons from hell?

The true splitting of the bloodstone was in order to prevent any race from controlling all the magic and such, I am not sure if by intention the bloodstones were also to use the souls of those killed on them to power the soul batteries and keep the Door of Komalie closed (of which may not have even been constructed at that time).

yeah i agree

Cirian · Mar 22, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

I have a feeling the Searing was the Charr's crusade to free the Titans from their prison. They must have known about the Flameseeker Prophesies themselves and had their own 'Flameseeker' - maybe it was Bonfazz Burntfur (the flire ele boss you kill in Rin), or maybe it was another.

I think they both worshipped Titans and wanted to control them, in the same way fantasy races sometimes summon greater demons in the hope of making powerful allies.

The Searing was a brute force attempt to find the Titan's mythical prison in humanity's hour of weakness. The human kingdoms had been crippled by civil wars - the guild wars - and the charr took advantage to raze the human lands in their search. I don't think the charr knew where the Door of Khomalie was... their plan was just to burn everything in their path until they found it

The odd thing about the Door of Khomalie and the Flameseeker Prophesies is that immediately after the door is "closed", the whole place explodes. The Seals of the soul batteries have not been replaced since the heroes destroyed them - meaning there is nothing to keep the lich's soul imprisoned!

Without any seals, the lich can cheat death (as they do) and invoked a vengeful cataclysm similar to the one he invoked in Orr. This would explain the eruption - a pretty good way of killing the heroes and turning them into a new undead army in the process. The heroes escape the cataclysm, but the Door of Khomalie must have been obliterated in the process.

The chances are fairly good that the Door wasn't a prison, and instead it was a portal to the Titan realm - a little Mursaat experiment gone wrong. Being too powerful for the Mursaat to control, the Door was sealed until they could figure out how to control them.

The destruction of the Door was probably Glint's true aim, as just sealing the door would require a constant stream of sacrifices to keep the soul batteries topped up, and the possible release of the Titans would still be a threat.

Glint and the Forgotten are servants of the gods; it is fair to say that it is the gods who are behind the Prophesy and the destruction of the Door, to put an end to the Bloodstone sacrifices, and to regain their human worshippers from the Mursaat. With the fall of the White Mantle, the Krytan royal family will be free to take over again and the worship of the old gods will be restored (to support the White Mantle's fall, there are quests to restore the royal bloodline in Fishermen's Haven)

The remaining problem is that the world is now FULL of Titans! Titan lords are all over the place commanding their legions, thanks to the Lich's portals.

There are even different types of titan - while some are living rock and magma, others are tree-like. Even though the Door is gone, the Titans could be here to stay.

It still doesn't explain how the Charr first met the Titans though... the only thing I can think of is that they could summon them at some point? Can they still summon Titans? Hmmm

Eldin · Mar 22, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

I heard somewhere that in the Flame Temple Corridor or Dragon's Gullet, there are things that appear to be sealed-off titan portals? It's possible, then, that they had summoned them in the past.

master_ranger_matt · Mar 23, 2006, 03:43 AM // 03:43

The ranger spirits look like that as well... but who knows?

Symeon · Mar 23, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

I just read this whole thread through. Very interesting discussion, guys.

I think this is a bit of an issue, Anet's lore on the charr has left us on the edge pondering what the facts are that fill in the gaps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldin

I'm not sure if this was said already, but think of it like this:

1) The charr worship the titans, and are their Gods. How on earth did they encounter them in the past is beyond me.

2) Perhaps the charr know of the prophecy. The titans most likely gave them the power to start the searing (if they already had such power they would have blown Ascalon to pieces some time ago). The charr had used the powers to intentionally create the searing. Thusly, they drove the chosen into the Nolani Academy mission, and thusly, the searing created a chain reaction that ended with the chosen being led by the Lich/Vizier Khilbron to the Ring of Fire to unleash their Gods.

3) The second-in-command charr are the charr lords, the third-in-command...well, do you remember in pre-searing, north of the wall, you can travel to the fire shrine that the charr used to conjure the searing? I think all those bosses there are the third-in-command, think of it as a High Council or the Elite Magi, or something of the sort.

4) The lich simply wanted to use the titans to rule Tyria. Not much relevancy there to that of the charr.

5) Vizier Khilbron most likely, as stated above, did intentionally create The Cataclysm. He was probably very aware that the dark magic from such powerful spells would be enough to be so unholy and...well...evil, that it would cause those killed to never find rest, bringing them back as undead.

6) The enchanted are just magical, animated sets of armor and weaponry, brought to "life" by the Forgotten, since they are mainly spellcasters, they had no chance at any melee/archery, hence the need to create them. Similar story with the Mursaat. Due to their inability to excel at much not related to magic, they animated jade and weapons to create Armors/Bows. Ever notice many jade bosses have Cairn in the name? (To name a few, Cairn the Troubling, Cairn the Smug) Maybe Cairn is a popular name...or maybe it's Mursaat-lingo for something like "elite combatant"?

7) The Mursaat, like the lich, don't really care much about what the Charr do with the Titans. They are one of the few races (next to the seers and charr) to know of the prophecy in full detail, and it says they will be destroyed by the Titans. Thusly, they must slaughter those destined to unleash the Titans and assure their doom. Thanks to Saul D'Alessio, the White Mantle worship the Mursaat, so they use them as pawns to do all the chosen-killing for them. The Mursaat prefer to be in hiding, their villages are deep in the jungle, and they did not show themselves until it was truly necessary for them to get involved (after the Crystal Desert, the Chosen have gained so much power and are getting so close that they, themselves, must help attempt to stop them).

As far as the issue is concerned, the theory in this post is similar to what I believe. However, there are still several unanswered questions:

1) How did the Charr cross the Shiverpeaks to Kryta and make it past the Deldrimor Dwarves?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The Charr, as far as I can discern, all came down from the north. They probably went north of the Shiverpeaks to reach Kryta, as it mentions the Mantle drove them back into the north.

If this is true, surely then, the edges of the map that we see in the game are not in fact the edges of the world, and so there is land that stretches north, above the Shiverpeaks.
I read something somewhere a while ago, and went looking for it ingame and in the manual just now. Either it has been deleted, changed, it was my imagination, or I just didn't find it, but I believe it was somewhere along these lines:
'There are two ways to cross the Shiverpeaks. One is Borlis Pass, the other is much farther north, deep in Charr territory.'
When I went searching, the NPCs in the area made no mention of this, but instead they talked of two passes, those being Borlis Pass, and the one further north that heads over Anvil Rock, guarded heavily by Stone Summit.
Confusing.

2) Which way did the Charr go to reach Orr?
The thing is, in-game, after the Searing, you don't actually see very many Charr below the wall. Did they sweep through in those 'two years' between when we were in the Academy Mission and arriving outside the shattered Ascalon City? That could make sense.
The other theory would be that they flanked Ascalon on its eastern edge - but there is no sign of that in Pockmark Flats. They couldn't have gone round the west side, as Rin was still holding against them.
And after that...head down the map from Ascalon. You reach a sort of 'wall of mountains' separating the grey land of Ascalon from the creamy land of the Crystal Desert. Did the Charr head through some kind of tunnel through this wall? And then...did they head through the Crystal Desert itself? There is no evidence I have seen in-game to prove this, I think it is highly unlikely. The only way they could have gone is along the northern, slightly greener, more passable coastline along to Orr. And there, they were wiped out.

3)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

It still doesn't explain how the Charr first met the Titans though... the only thing I can think of is that they could summon them at some point? Can they still summon Titans? Hmmm

So...where did the Charr first encounter or come into knowing of the Titans? Did some godly being visit them, and tell them about the titans? Did a titan pop in for a chat through a portal? Did they see the titans in action? Or did they just have sense in their brain from the beginning that the Titans existed, and worshipped them?
And furthermore...who created the Charr in the first place? Surely if the gods made all of Tyria...they would have favoured the great human nations rather than this horde of beasts? Or did they just create a few Charr and leave them to evolve? Or did they create them with the intention of disturbing the human nations?

Regardless of these questions, this is extremely interesting. Keep it up, hopefully from this discussion we can solve these mysteries.

Cirian · Mar 23, 2006, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

3)
So...where did the Charr first encounter or come into knowing of the Titans? Did some godly being visit them, and tell them about the titans? Did a titan pop in for a chat through a portal? Did they see the titans in action? Or did they just have sense in their brain from the beginning that the Titans existed, and worshipped them?

The only definate relationship I know of is the one show in the OP's pic - the burning effigy of a Titan. They've definately seen them in the past.

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

And furthermore...who created the Charr in the first place? Surely if the gods made all of Tyria...they would have favoured the great human nations rather than this horde of beasts? Or did they just create a few Charr and leave them to evolve? Or did they create them with the intention of disturbing the human nations?

It could be that the gods have many appearances - we see tham as humans, but they may appear before the Charr as Charr deities. I'll have to read the Tyrian history in the GW booklet that came in the box again... I'm pretty sure humans are not granted any special favour though.

Warcheif_Jonval · Mar 24, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

In regards to how the Charr got to Kryta and how the Dwarves survived..
If you look at where Droknar's forge is on the world map, Its far to the south of either pass through the mountains. which would mean the dwarves likely caught wind of the Charr invasion of ascalon and retreated south to Forge and Thunderhead Keep, letting the Charr go on their marry way.
Alternitively, the dwarves, being briliant engeneers, likely collapsed and blocked several key passes to corral the charr through to kryta, with out risking any of their settlements.

Since Lions arch is south of the caves where you exit the shiverpeaks, they likely came from there. Also, there seems to be a northern passage between the the Great Salt Basin and the mountains them selves. If the charr didnt go through the mountains, they went through there.

If the Dwarves did not get out of the way in time, they probobly used their superior knowlage of the mountains and its passes to avoid the charr. since becon's perch and grubles gulch arent very high tech, consisting mostly of Palisaide walls, they support the theory that the dwarves didnt exactly get out of the way in time.

The centaur camps east of beacons pearch are likely new as well.

In regards to how they got to Orr...

They likely sailed to Orr from the coasts around Lions Arch. I believe Ive seen Npcs refer to the Charr useing slaves, so its likely they enslaved a number of Krytans to sail them to Orr.

If they sail, the probobly swept through the desert like they did in ascalon. Bruttaly, quickly, and suddenly. Being led by a divine mission, they would not have been slowed down by much. If the charr went through the desert, they probobly viewed it as a test by the gods.
"And thus sayith our hairy lord.. 'I am your god! attack Orr! head south from ascalon throgh the Desert! if you dont make it, I will personaly obliterate your race because you are unworthy of my gaze!....

...Fear me!' Char bible, cave 5, wall 4."

In regards to the Viseirs plan to take over Tyria....

Our freind, the Lich was probobly behind the scenes controlling everything from the Charr invasion to the Mantle's rise to power and The Shining Blade's knowlage of Mantle acctivities. He likely, useing the abilities granted to him by being a lich, conjured an image of a Titain, and incited the Charr invasion. Once the charr approached Orr, the Vizeir "aided" the defeat of any military force that the Orrians had with his magic. (again, he can move him self at will, make you move and attack faster, and change form, im sure he helped the Charr alot, if not just by intimidateing the Orrians with his Titain illusion). Once the Charr approached the capital of Orr, he patitioned the king to grant him access to the Scepter of Orr, in order to try his "Trump Card." Seeing no other option, the king granted access to the scepter and the rest is a bloodstained history.

Serafita Kayin · Mar 27, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

For the record, cairn is a pile of stones.

Eldin · Mar 27, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_ranger_matt

The ranger spirits look like that as well... but who knows?

Ranger spirits look like Redwood Shepherds/Oakhearts/Entangling Roots. Think of the enemies I just mentioned as tree ents. The spirits are technically spirits of the ents...spirits of nature. While they are a tad similar to the Titans, the Titans walk upright. The Risen Ashen Hulks DO look like these spirits/ents, in fact, it's the same model, just bigger and with an ash skin.

Titans have three "legs", the spirits have four I think...think of them like apes or something, hunching down on all four, and they hurl their projectile from one of the front legs.

Avarre · Mar 28, 2006, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warcheif_Jonval

They likely sailed to Orr from the coasts around Lions Arch. I believe Ive seen Npcs refer to the Charr useing slaves, so its likely they enslaved a number of Krytans to sail them to Orr.

If they sail, the probobly swept through the desert like they did in ascalon. Bruttaly, quickly, and suddenly. Being led by a divine mission, they would not have been slowed down by much. If the charr went through the desert, they probobly viewed it as a test by the gods.
"And thus sayith our hairy lord.. 'I am your god! attack Orr! head south from ascalon throgh the Desert! if you dont make it, I will personaly obliterate your race because you are unworthy of my gaze!....

...Fear me!' Char bible, cave 5, wall 4."

In regards to the Viseirs plan to take over Tyria....

Our freind, the Lich was probobly behind the scenes controlling everything from the Charr invasion to the Mantle's rise to power and The Shining Blade's knowlage of Mantle acctivities. He likely, useing the abilities granted to him by being a lich, conjured an image of a Titain, and incited the Charr invasion. Once the charr approached Orr, the Vizeir "aided" the defeat of any military force that the Orrians had with his magic. (again, he can move him self at will, make you move and attack faster, and change form, im sure he helped the Charr alot, if not just by intimidateing the Orrians with his Titain illusion). Once the Charr approached the capital of Orr, he patitioned the king to grant him access to the Scepter of Orr, in order to try his "Trump Card." Seeing no other option, the king granted access to the scepter and the rest is a bloodstained history.

The charr passed south to Orr over land. The little booklet mentions the Charr assault on Orr did not take place until after the searing. After the devastation, there were abandoned places in the wall that the main charr force was able to traverse, and then close on Orr (which we already know had a pathway to, since humans travelled).

The Vizier did not become a Lich until after the Cataclysm. I stand by my opinion that he did not intend the Cataclysm to happen. His back was clearly against the wall, or else he would not have obliterated so much at such a risk. The scroll was forbidden and he did not have access to it, so I doubt he knew exactly what would happen. Nowhere in the prophecy does it say he had to be dead, and the Orrian army 'was the equal of any.' If he had been planning it from before, I'd think he's stay in human form with the sceptre and an Orrian army. Since he did not make any notion of going after the Titans, most likely the Charr simple overwhelmed him and as a desperation move, destroyed Orr. After he awoke, he eventually learned of the prophecies (most likely through allying with the Seer, who harbours an intense hatred of the Mursaat that guard the gate), and together plotted the downfall of the Mursaat, and subsequently all of Tyria. The seer too was misled by the Lich, and probably did not realize how far it would go (while they did know of the Titans, they aided the Lich's cause). Once the Lich revealed his full intentions, only then does the Seer try to fight him. Notice that the seer and Lich have the same attack (dark damage from their hands). Maybe the Seer's race is actually an ancient Necromancer race?

If we take that rather wild assumption, we can draw a new story. After finding the Seer (now being assumed to be a necromantic race or so), the Seer taught him how the whole becoming a Lich could be done, and the prophecies. From there, the story unfolded, and the Lich betrayed the Seer.

Warcheif_Jonval · Mar 28, 2006, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Well, avarre, while your story sells closely to what is put in the manual, you have to remember, the viseir betrayed you, the shining blade, and essentialy everyone he allied with. Its not a far cry for him to be betraying and schemeing long before our parts in the story.

Also, the manual may say one thing, but its a historical account and historical accounts are not always 100% true.

Im not saying your compleately wrong, heck im not saying im compleately right. all im saying is you shouldent discount someones take on historical events just by a few lines of debateable text (expecaly in a game manual where someone is trying to avoid spoilers like the plauge)